Comments on: Rotten in Denmark: Credit cards with mandatory PIN http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/ Living the first class life -- at coach prices Wed, 03 Dec 2008 20:41:21 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=8933 By: Michael http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-24764 Michael Sat, 04 Oct 2008 05:36:11 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-24764 "If you are an international traveler you should use a credit card company that will issue you a card with a chip+pin. It’s only going to get harder and harder for you to do it the old way." I would LOVE to - but there are no banks in the US that issue cards with chips! After constantly being unable to use a credit card at any store in Denmark, I came home and contacted all the banks I could - including international banks asking them how I could get a card with the chip, the answer is, without an address outside the US, you can't! So, US banks are really making it hard for Americans travelers. “If you are an international traveler you should use a credit card company that will issue you a card with a chip+pin. It’s only going to get harder and harder for you to do it the old way.”

I would LOVE to - but there are no banks in the US that issue cards with chips! After constantly being unable to use a credit card at any store in Denmark, I came home and contacted all the banks I could - including international banks asking them how I could get a card with the chip, the answer is, without an address outside the US, you can’t!

So, US banks are really making it hard for Americans travelers.

]]> By: Rick http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-22348 Rick Sun, 29 Jun 2008 13:33:11 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-22348 EU law makes the retailer liable for credit card fraud, where a PIN is not used. If you don't have an EMV card (ie one with the Eurocard/Mastercard/Visa specification chip) you can present a photo-ID to the sales clerk to prove you are the named cardholder. The EMV card is far more secure than the old fashioned magnetic stripe credit card because if your card is lost or stolen, anyone who finds it has only three attempts to guess the PIN. After that the card locks, and has to be unblocked by contacting the card issuer and taking the card to an ATM. If people are allowed to sign rather than entering a PIN, the system breaks down - unless they are forced to provide ID. These cards offer the only secure method of electronic payment at self-service machines - gas stations, DVD rental machines, ticket vending machines, and similar. North America is the world capital of card fraud because the banking system has not updated the card payment security. France was the first country to introduce PIN cards, and as a result has enjoyed one of the lowest point of sale card fraud in the world. EU law makes the retailer liable for credit card fraud, where a PIN is not used. If you don’t have an EMV card (ie one with the Eurocard/Mastercard/Visa specification chip) you can present a photo-ID to the sales clerk to prove you are the named cardholder. The EMV card is far more secure than the old fashioned magnetic stripe credit card because if your card is lost or stolen, anyone who finds it has only three attempts to guess the PIN. After that the card locks, and has to be unblocked by contacting the card issuer and taking the card to an ATM.

If people are allowed to sign rather than entering a PIN, the system breaks down - unless they are forced to provide ID. These cards offer the only secure method of electronic payment at self-service machines - gas stations, DVD rental machines, ticket vending machines, and similar. North America is the world capital of card fraud because the banking system has not updated the card payment security.

France was the first country to introduce PIN cards, and as a result has enjoyed one of the lowest point of sale card fraud in the world.

]]> By: Steve http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-21893 Steve Fri, 09 May 2008 14:19:29 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-21893 I had problems in Feb 2007 in Denmark. Only stores along the walking street would accept my Canadian credit cards. The rest of stores simply refused. It is was a great inconvenience and I personally would not go back again due to this experience. I had problems in Feb 2007 in Denmark. Only stores along the walking street would accept my Canadian credit cards. The rest of stores simply refused. It is was a great inconvenience and I personally would not go back again due to this experience.

]]> By: chrismo1 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-17062 chrismo1 Wed, 24 Oct 2007 09:52:00 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-17062 Remember that in Denmark, most supermarkets do not accept credit cards although they have a "credit card processing device". They only accept Danish issued debit cards, the so-called Dankort. Also, in Denmark, PIN transactions were adopted in the late 80'ies and is not related to the chip, which was adopted three years ago, where all "dankort" cards were replaced with chip cards. Remember that in Denmark, most supermarkets do not accept credit cards although they have a “credit card processing device”. They only accept Danish issued debit cards, the so-called Dankort. Also, in Denmark, PIN transactions were adopted in the late 80′ies and is not related to the chip, which was adopted three years ago, where all “dankort” cards were replaced with chip cards.

]]> By: John D http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-16166 John D Wed, 05 Sep 2007 14:29:10 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-16166 The US is definitely behind the times on this (American Express Blue actually had the Chip/PIN and removed it) but I have had no problem using US issued cards in France - the Chip and PIN POS machines in restaurants are actually still more secure since the waiter generally carries it to your table and swipes it in front of you. I really do hope that the US will follow Europe soon on this, but for a variety of reasons (US online payments infrastructure) it is unlikely to happen ... The US is definitely behind the times on this (American Express Blue actually had the Chip/PIN and removed it) but I have had no problem using US issued cards in France - the Chip and PIN POS machines in restaurants are actually still more secure since the waiter generally carries it to your table and swipes it in front of you. I really do hope that the US will follow Europe soon on this, but for a variety of reasons (US online payments infrastructure) it is unlikely to happen …

]]> By: Peter T http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-15751 Peter T Mon, 30 Jul 2007 13:53:26 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-15751 Chip and Pin is in most places in South Africa too - it will eventually be everywhere. US is behind the times! In UK the retailer is responsible for fraud on swipe/sign but the card issuer is responsible when chip/pin, so retailers are reluctant to swipe/sign. However all terminals retain the facility to swipe/sign for disabled people etc (it can be a training issue) If you are obnoxious enough you are almost always able to swipe in UK. For UK cards your ATM pin is same as chip/pin (and all UK credit/debit cards are chip/pin enabled). Another good Chip/pin thing is that it stops a waiter double swipping your card in a restaurant. Chip and Pin is in most places in South Africa too - it will eventually be everywhere. US is behind the times! In UK the retailer is responsible for fraud on swipe/sign but the card issuer is responsible when chip/pin, so retailers are reluctant to swipe/sign. However all terminals retain the facility to swipe/sign for disabled people etc (it can be a training issue) If you are obnoxious enough you are almost always able to swipe in UK.
For UK cards your ATM pin is same as chip/pin (and all UK credit/debit cards are chip/pin enabled).
Another good Chip/pin thing is that it stops a waiter double swipping your card in a restaurant.

]]> By: Travis Choma http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-15313 Travis Choma Fri, 29 Jun 2007 10:05:46 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-15313 I just wanted to add my 2cents to the chip and pin discussion. The Netherlands having ChipKnip is a seperate issue than credit cards with chip+pin. In the Netherlands the ChipKnip system is a system where you have a chip in your Debit card. You can go to ChipKnip loading stations and load up to 500 euros from your Dutch checking account on to the chip on your Debit card. This has nothing to do with the chips in Visa and Mastercards. Also wanted to say that the Chip+Pin for Visa transactions is not limited to Europe, I was in South Korea and this was standard everywhere. Worked no problem with my Dutch Mastercard. I think the USA is lagging behind in security. Especially with all this identity theft. If you are an international traveler you should use a credit card company that will issue you a card with a chip+pin. It's only going to get harder and harder for you to do it the old way. Also wanted to say that comparing the Dutch internet banking security to the USA internet banking security there is also a big difference. With my Chase account in the US I login with a username/password. Whereas with my ABN Amro account I have an e-dentifier which is a little device which I stick my atm card in. It prompts me for my pin via a keypad, and then I need to copy a code from the internet banking site into the device and it returns another secret code which i fill in in my webbrowser to logon. Also any transacation about 3K it also makes me do the security challenge to execute the transaction. I feel a lot safer when using the Dutch system. I just wanted to add my 2cents to the chip and pin discussion.

The Netherlands having ChipKnip is a seperate issue than credit cards with chip+pin.

In the Netherlands the ChipKnip system is a system where you have a chip in your Debit card. You can go to ChipKnip loading stations and load up to 500 euros from your Dutch checking account on to the chip on your Debit card. This has nothing to do with the chips in Visa and Mastercards.

Also wanted to say that the Chip+Pin for Visa transactions is not limited to Europe, I was in South Korea and this was standard everywhere. Worked no problem with my Dutch Mastercard.

I think the USA is lagging behind in security. Especially with all this identity theft. If you are an international traveler you should use a credit card company that will issue you a card with a chip+pin. It’s only going to get harder and harder for you to do it the old way.

Also wanted to say that comparing the Dutch internet banking security to the USA internet banking security there is also a big difference. With my Chase account in the US I login with a username/password. Whereas with my ABN Amro account I have an e-dentifier which is a little device which I stick my atm card in. It prompts me for my pin via a keypad, and then I need to copy a code from the internet banking site into the device and it returns another secret code which i fill in in my webbrowser to logon. Also any transacation about 3K it also makes me do the security challenge to execute the transaction. I feel a lot safer when using the Dutch system.

]]> By: Ethan http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-14780 Ethan Fri, 18 May 2007 05:17:40 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-14780 Using credit cards abroad is getting more and more difficult. I remember when I wanted to pay my pre-paid cell phone in Canada with my US-issued VISA, Fido wouldn't take it because I didn't have a Canadian postal code. When I was in Luxembourg, I tried using my visa issued in Korea. They wanted PIN, so I just typed in my PIN to withdraw cash, and it worked. I don't like this whole, you have to do this and that thing. It's my credit card in my name. Why should I have to prove them anything? It's kinda like you're guilty until proven innocent. Using credit cards abroad is getting more and more difficult. I remember when I wanted to pay my pre-paid cell phone in Canada with my US-issued VISA, Fido wouldn’t take it because I didn’t have a Canadian postal code.
When I was in Luxembourg, I tried using my visa issued in Korea. They wanted PIN, so I just typed in my PIN to withdraw cash, and it worked.
I don’t like this whole, you have to do this and that thing. It’s my credit card in my name. Why should I have to prove them anything? It’s kinda like you’re guilty until proven innocent.

]]> By: Update: How to beat the chip and PIN credit card requirement? » Upgrade: Travel Better http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-11932 Update: How to beat the chip and PIN credit card requirement? » Upgrade: Travel Better Fri, 20 Apr 2007 14:37:49 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-11932 [...] e-mail, he suggests this potential workaround to chip-and-PIN requirements for non-European credit card holders. He verifies that this trick works in Ireland: I don’t [...] […] e-mail, he suggests this potential workaround to chip-and-PIN requirements for non-European credit card holders. He verifies that this trick works in Ireland: I don’t […]

]]> By: Upgrade: Travel Better » Blog Archive » Pet peeves revisited: Chip-and-PIN credit card “security” undermined http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-544 Upgrade: Travel Better » Blog Archive » Pet peeves revisited: Chip-and-PIN credit card “security” undermined Fri, 05 Jan 2007 04:57:01 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-544 [...] Remember the difficulties which blog readers (and I) shared regarding the use of American credit cards overseas, when the only way to complete a transaction was using “chip-and-PIN” technology? [...] […] Remember the difficulties which blog readers (and I) shared regarding the use of American credit cards overseas, when the only way to complete a transaction was using “chip-and-PIN” technology? […]

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-239 Anonymous Fri, 13 Oct 2006 13:58:00 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-239 The US gas station thing is a pain for non US card holders - however, you can try putting in 5 zeros as your zip code. I've used this a few times with my UK issued Amex card - but I don't know if it works with other cards. The US gas station thing is a pain for non US card holders - however, you can try putting in 5 zeros as your zip code. I’ve used this a few times with my UK issued Amex card - but I don’t know if it works with other cards.

]]> By: Anonymous http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-238 Anonymous Thu, 05 Oct 2006 05:43:00 +0000 http://www.upgradetravelbetter.com/2006/10/04/rotten-in-denmark-credit-cards-with-mandatory-pin/#comment-238 In a related practice, travel to places like South America are interesting. I loved trying to use the ATM in Venezuela. The machine times out if you don't press a button about every 0.8 seconds. So you go through several iterations to learn the sequence and being rejected before you can get it down and process very quickly to get your money. I've worked in banking technology strategy for years and I'll tell you flat out that banks are LOST in these areas. Banks, Visa, MC, AMEX, processors, the ATM network, they are lost and all protecting their own myopic interests to the detriment of their customer base. In a related practice, travel to places like South America are interesting. I loved trying to use the ATM in Venezuela. The machine times out if you don’t press a button about every 0.8 seconds. So you go through several iterations to learn the sequence and being rejected before you can get it down and process very quickly to get your money. I’ve worked in banking technology strategy for years and I’ll tell you flat out that banks are LOST in these areas. Banks, Visa, MC, AMEX, processors, the ATM network, they are lost and all protecting their own myopic interests to the detriment of their customer base.

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